Treachery. Weakness


Revelation - For each token in the chaos bag, you must either replace it with a token or take 1 horror.

Michele Frigo
The Innsmouth Conspiracy #7.
Crisis of Faith

This is a rough one, and you want to draw it as early as possible--or have an insurance policy that NEVER leaves your hand. There's been a couple of times where I had almost a full bag of bless tokens, and got hit for 4 horror AND 4 blessings changed to curses right about the time you're gearing up for that boss fight at the end of the scenario. Yeah, I powered through it, but it doesn't feel too good. And for that reason, thematically, I love this weakness.

Pinchers · 111
Always Deny the Existence of your Crisis of Faith and then it's as though it never happened ^_^ — NarkasisBroon · 10
Yeah, that's the best tack. I'm playing with Diana Stanley, though, who's using those Denials for her own purposes. Lesson learned! — Pinchers · 111
Deny Existence only works vs encounter cards. — Maylick · 1
Good thing then that treachery weaknesses are considered to be encounter cards while they are being resolved. (second bullet point under "Weaknesses" in the Rules page). — Voltgloss · 347

This one is going to hurt you, with a few caveats: if your seeker friends help you find it, you can trigger it to do very little horror; if a fellow investigator is trying to use the grimoire, it could turn your tokens right back into blessings; you can use rite of sanctification to keep those blesses out of the bag.

Update: it seems the blessing tokens can be easily sealed. So this weakness is to prevent Mary from just flooding the bag and seeing what happens. As a weakness, it’s pretty interesting how it requires you to work with a rhythm, just like Thrice-Damned Curiosity.

Beat this with deny existence. (Thanks Death by Chocolate.)

MrGoldbee · 1361
Don’t forget the strong, simple preparation of Deny Existence. — Death by Chocolate · 1316
Or get the curses out of the bag with some easy tests (shroud 1-2) or increase your static modifier. — Django · 4679
Deny Existence don't deny weaknesses, only encounter cards or enemy attacks. — Venti · 1
"When an investigator draws a weakness with an encounter cardtype (for example, an enemy or a treachery weakness), resolve that card as if it were just drawn from the encounter deck." — MrGoldbee · 1361

After FAQ 2.1 was published, in accordance with entry 2.23 (p. 13), the sister is no longer to deny her Crisis of Faith - it does exist, which mean a single card as an emergency button doesn't work. However, another card comes to mind for Mary's weakness, which is Tides of Fate: play it next round right after the upkeep phase, and pack yourself with some Bless-Sealing cards, the weakness is reasonable to be played around.

IvanYHYu · 3
It's a good thing we got this nerf to Sister Mary, she was really out of control beforehand — CaiusDrewart · 2910
While Mary might not have been OP, it was kinda BS that she and Diana could see totally ignore their weakness. What should be an interesting choice for them became a non-issue entirely. — Nenananas · 229
For Sister Mary the nerf is bigger, than for Diana. Even with the new reading, she can ignore one horror, loose a card, and stack DE below, essentially eating up 3 horror and staying at the same brain level and drawing a card and gaining a resource. The level 5 version gets overcosted, when used on "Terrible Secret", though, as it essentially only counters one more horror. I agree with Nenananas, that the option was kind of BS. I played Diana for one campaign without being aware of this option, and then some time with the cheese, and I agree, she doesn't need it. But like mentioned in other reviews, the new ruling has opened up some positive interactions with player cards, that also feel kind of silly. (Carolyn generates a buck for each charge spent from "Earthly Serenity", even when used on the same card, and there might be others.) So the fix is far from perfect. — Susumu · 312
Sorry, my math was wrong with "Terrible Secret", it's "only" 2 horror with DE (0). Say you have 5 cards below her, when drawing TS. You ignore 1 horror, discard a card, so you still have to take 3 horror, if you want to stay at the same willpower. You would probably rather take only 2 horror, and stay at 5 willpower for a turn, but that's another consideration, not the math of the card. Still, in my book, DE (0) looks like a great counter for TS, even after the nerf. And DE (5) can probably also be worth it, in particular if you got it with some upgrade discount, and use the second copy for greater impact. — Susumu · 312
I do agree that it was really silly that Diana (and others) could ignore weaknesses. But in my view the better solution would be for Deny Existence to be errata'd (or taboo'd) to say "non-weakness," rather than this rules change. — CaiusDrewart · 2910

Well, as I can see from the latest FAQ on Deny Existence card, since each choice is made independently and is not simultaneous, you can cancel only one point of horror instead of replacing one bless token with one copy of Deny Existence card. Seems I was playing it wrong and much easier than it actually is.

chrome · 45
hmm, that ruling seems suspect, and it is frustrating that we've received a number of questionable rulings lately (such as the infamous free trigger at any time ruling). DE says to "You ignore that aspect of the effect. (Each other aspect resolves normally.)" which is to say, each part of the effect 'other than taking horror' resolves as normal. But the entire effect is one effect - simultaneous or otherwise. (and I see no reason for it not to be simultaneous as there is nothing precedenting that it wouldn't be, any more so than commiting cards during a skill test' is mechanically simultaneous even if player decisions to commit cards are literally not) — Death by Chocolate · 1316
The new rules for "For Each" now say that simultaneous things are all the same effect, but non-simultaneous things each create their own effect; also, you can't seem to make multiple choices simultaneously (like, "For 5 bless tokens, I'll take 5 horror" counts as 5 choices, not 1), so each choice requires its own effect. This feels... a little stupid. I don't see a great mechanical or flavorful reason why these need to be treated separately. — Hylianpuffball · 24
Perhaps they just wanted to nerf Diana and Mary. Seems like a bit of a pointless ruling. — snacc · 923
I agree with snacc. To be honest, by the old rule their signature weakness were pretty much pointless, if you had a DE in hand. Of note, a versatile Harvey can still deny all damage. — Susumu · 312
@ DbC: What's the "infamous free trigger at any time ruling", you are talking about? — Susumu · 312
@Susumu there was a (now overturned) ruling in December that said you could play fast events between sequential non-actions, such as playing Well-Maintained on a Backpack in the middle of resolving Geared Up or playing Elusive in between resolving moves from Nimble. The ruling was in contradiction of the timing rules and would have opened up so many cans of worms. — Death by Chocolate · 1316
Thank you. That did not came to my note. — Susumu · 312
Doesn't deny still work on Crisis?, Crisis can be resolved in one step "i remove no curses and take X horror" and it has no dependencies or other steps. — Zerogrim · 281
The FAQ on Deny Existence says it can only cancel one horror, because choices cannot be resolved simultaneously (despite the fact that... you know... they can?) — Hylianpuffball · 24
I'm pretty sure Deny works just fine. The FAQ states — gery · 1
(Accidentally clicked enter and no delete button pff) FAQ has 2 examples. "take 1 horror for each point you fail by" can be calculated and resolved as a single horror loss. "For each point you fail by, discard 1 random card from your hand. For each card you cannot discard, take 1 horror or 1 damage" This has to be one at a time since you need to calculate how many times you cannot discard a card (might be very much possible to draw a card while taking damage for example). Crisis of faith is simple: X bless at that single moment -> X horror (the horror taken will not increase/decrease if, while taking 1 horror at a time, you somehow add/remove bless from the bag) — gery · 1
Is there a possibility? Because there is no "For each" related rule, players have always "thought" that Deny Existence can interact with Diana/Mary's weak card like this, without asking the official opinion? Now, the official has clearly explained the rules in this regard, shouldn't it be a good thing? — Jacksonsu · 1